I was in a conversation this past weekend with another newly liberated fundy female and she was mentioning the whole covering up of women bodies and hair in some fundy groups and wondering why this is such a big issue.
My own opinion is that female sexuality is scary and maybe feels too powerful for some men to handle or accept.
Anybody have any opinions on this issue?
My own opinion is that female sexuality is scary and maybe feels too powerful for some men to handle or accept.
Anybody have any opinions on this issue?
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Re: Fundys and the problems with females
Mon, June 5, 2006 - 8:37 PMIMVHO:
The covering of the female body and hair is not only a Christian issue. When I look at the area and culture the bible came from, I see it not so much as a "sexuality is scary" paradigm, but a "woman as possession" mindset. "Women as chattel" is a theme in the Old Testament, a book of which Christianity, Judiaism and Islam all have in their sacred documents. This culture keeps women covered and kept out of sight as much as possible, with only a few notable exceptions.
When I was hosting Saudi exchange students, I asked them why women were required to be covered up and men weren't. One student said that it was a matter of "protecting what is yours." He explained that no man wants another man looking at his women; they're his, and his alone. This dictum included not having a picture of any female relative in your wallet, lest another man looked at the picture and saw "your" woman.
I've also heard this couched in terms of "men can't control their lust when they see a woman's body or hair, so they have to be protected from their baser instincts," but if that were the case, men wouldn't be allowed to watch soccer together, because it might start them fighting over their favorite teams, which would be a "baser instinct" thing.
I think it's also a power thing; the more restrictions I can put on you, the more priviledged I feel. If someone from the subordinate class (in this case, women) has the same freedoms I do, then my status/power is threatened, unless I can explain the variation in non-favorable terms (a prostitute, a godless westerner, etc) and subject them to harsher treatment than other members of the subordinate group.
Of course, not all men of the desert culture feel this way; we're talking fundamentalists of all stripes here, and your milage may vary.
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Re: Fundys and the problems with females
Mon, June 5, 2006 - 8:45 PMdo you think that is tied to the middle east or that it turns up in other areas of the world as well? such as East Asia, or India, Maori or Native American culture, etc -
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Re: Fundys and the problems with females
Tue, June 6, 2006 - 6:34 PMAgain, IMVHO:
I can't speak to Maori or First Nation culture, as I don't have as much knowledge or interaction with them. As for Asia and India, I think some cultural mingling had to happen over time; after all, the Middle East is smack dab in between Africa and Asia. I think the deep-seeded mysogyny is more prevalent in Middle Eastern societies, however. Women aren't allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia, burquas were the law in Afghanistan, etc. I think the unequality of women all over the world shows that it's not a "fear of female sexuality" thing but a "power over" paradigm independent of the Old Testament. One doesn't have to have the Bible to be a fundamentalist; there are fundamentalist Communists.
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Re: Fundy's and the problems with females
Sat, June 10, 2006 - 4:08 PMI think it's an overblown issue of modesty. I can understand some of the Muslim tradition that sounds like ownership and property where women are concerned. On the other side, looking at the fashion trends of the last 10 years I can see where a bit of modesty could be encouraged. There is a time, place and body size appropriate for crop tops. It's one of the reasons I refuse to perform as a member of a bellydance troupe. I refuse to shine my fat belly. I am a member of a troupe, by invitation. I dance for exercise, joy and other women, as is the dance tradition in the Middle East.
Female sexuality has only been in the forefront since the Women's Movement and Sexual Revolutions took off in the 1960's. The issue existed prior to that, but was less in the public eye. ... Trying to keep on topic, this could easily wander. Must think female sexuality and fundamentalism.....
My problem with being a church going SINGLE female is the attitude in so many churches. If you are single and over 25, something must be wrong with you! Yes, this is more region by region.
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Re: Fundy's and the problems with females
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 2:42 PMOkay, if female sexuality is not a main issue or problem in fundamentalism then why do we only see god as male? I realize I may be taking this in a new direction but women are crated secondary, less than so we can be seen a property. Why? Why is there not allowed a form of female god with a male god? -
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Re: Fundy's and the problems with females
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 5:04 PMIt always bothered me as a child that God was spoken of as male. Because if god is an unknowable mystery, I couldn't understand how something like gender was even relevant. Does it really matter if the burning bush has a Y chromosome?
It's like
A: "you're supposed to believe in this omnipotent, incorporeal being"
B: okay, I'm with you so far...
A; "and this being has, an incorporeal penis"
B: wha??? hmmm, gotta think about that one.... -
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Re: Fundy's and the problems with females
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 5:05 PMactually, to amend my prior example, one supposes it would be an omnipotent, incorporeal penis.
my bad.
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Re: Fundy's and the problems with females
Thu, June 15, 2006 - 7:28 PMI was taught that the pronoun "he" was to be used if the gender was not known. The issue of feminine with God has never hit my brain. It always came across as silly, until I met women who's fathers were not doing the job right in their eyes. The idea of the Creator being male was uncomfortable to them.
As a Baptist, one of my problems with the Catholic Church is the veneration of Mary. It can be seen as godess worship. I didn't say the Catholic Church treats her that way.
A Jewish friend taught me to think of God as "Creator of the Universe." Who did the writing and who were the scribes. Men. That explains it to me. If you read the creation story as a teaching story and not literal fact, you can gain a new perspective. There used to be a poem that said something about women's creation from Adam's rib. Not from his head to be above him; nor his foot to be below, but from a rib to be beside him and from under the arm to be protected.
If you really want to be a smart alek, you could consider that Adam was the pre-production Beta model. Eve was the finished retail product. (No comments about prostitution. I spent too many years working in retail.) -
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Re: Fundy's and the problems with females
Fri, June 16, 2006 - 5:10 PMThe practice of veiling women actually came from the Byzintine empire. Muslims were at the forefront of women's rights up until about the 1500's (for the time anyways).
As far as god being male or female, my understanding is that it lies in the interpretation of the old testement. I've read that (and it's been a long time so I'm paraphrasing) the first scriptures said that the creating entity was a mother goddess and that Yahweh was her son. I'm having a hard time finding this info on the web and I'm not sure where I read it, so... Also, the scripture says that "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27. If both were in the image of god, then god must have dual sexuality or maybe (gasp) the sexuality of humans and god is not what being "in the image of god" is about. -
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Re: Fundy's and the problems with females
Fri, June 16, 2006 - 5:10 PMBy the way, this is the type of critical thinking that got me in trouble at Sunday School. -
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Unsu...
Re: Onmipotent Incorporeal Penis
Mon, June 19, 2006 - 8:44 AMI love it!
I am writing this down and I am going to use this somewhere:
OIP... my mind is racing!
I am with you Shhhhh...Critical thinking has always been my down fall and I suspect it is the reason why it is so discouraged especially with the fundementalist.
I have also read the story you cited about Y being born of a female god and then creating his universe of us. I think I may have it somewhere in my bookshelf.
Also, Deb mentioned that in the Jewish tradition that these are teaching stories from the Bible. I find them much easier to digest as a teaching tool that can show me human insight into our spiritual natures than literal truths that are impossible to live with.
My whole issue with the lack of representation as a woman is this:
Why create me then?
Why give me a brain to think with?
If God intended me to be purely a help-mate then why did “He” not just create me that way so that men could rule the world unchallenged by my womanly ramblings (she said facetiously)?
If I may answer my own question it is this:
“He” didn’t create that image of me, man did.
Obviously God has no issue with me as a thinking woman or else I would have heard something by now.
In all of nature, which I am excepting at this posting is created by God; there is balance except in this one area where only men, not humans but men, can rule, be blessed by God leaders of whatever they deem leadable for any number of sound reasons (again with the glib fingers) which don’t apply to women for just as many sound reasons none of which make sense or that I can think of right now. -
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Re: Onmipotent Incorporeal Penis
Mon, June 19, 2006 - 3:15 PMOf course, then there's the story of Lilith, the actual first woman created. This story wasn't canonized by the Catholic church at the council od Nice (I think that's the name) and I think has also been repressed in Jewish scripture. This woman was made of clay at the same time that Adam was, and according to Wikipedia, "Lilith is described as refusing to assume a subservient role to Adam during sexual intercourse and so deserting him ("She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while I am to be the superior one.'"). Lilith promptly uttered the name of God, took to the air, and left the Garden, settling on the Red Sea coast." Wikipesia says that this myth was created during the Middle Ages, but I've also read that it is a Hebrew myth that is as old as the Genesis story. After Lilith left, Adam was lonely and God created Eve from one of his ribs as a helpmate. I prefer to be Lilith as opposed to Eve. -
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Unsu...
Re: Onmipotent Incorporeal Penis
Tue, June 20, 2006 - 10:12 AMI agree and I find it interesting that Lilith has been demonized in popular culture and by the church.
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